"Brokenness as a Starting Point for Beauty" with Makoto and Lydia Fujumura

Just when I thought I was beginning to understand beauty, I had the opportunity to talk to renowned artist and author Makoto Fujimura and his daughter, Lydia.

Mako is a leading contemporary artist. His art has been featured in galleries and museums around the world and is represented by Waterfall Mansion in New York City and Artrue International in Asia. Fujimura is also an arts advocate, speaker, and has written several books, including Refractions, Culture Care, and Silence and Beauty. He is recognized worldwide as a cultural influencer and currently serves as the Director of Culture Care Initiative at Fuller Theological Seminary.

Lydia Fujimura is a human resources professional and a lifelong student of human psychology and behavior. She holds a Masters degree in Organizational Psychology. Lydia has also worked alongside a nonprofit group called Telos, which is dedicated to peacemaking efforts among polarized people groups.

As you can imagine, this conversation is fascinating. Together, Mako and Lydia invited me to see how brokenness can in fact be the starting point for beauty and how eternal truths about true beauty can be passed down from generation to generation.

If you’re like me, this conversation will inspire you, transform your ideas around beauty, and have you saving money to buy a Makoto Fujimura print.

The Interview

Audio engineering by: McGinty Media

The Interview Transcript

Melissa: Thank you guys so much for meeting today.

Mako: Absolutely.

Melissa: I feel really privileged that you guys took the time to talk with me, so thank you.

Lydia: Yeah, us too

Mako: Yeah, it's the first time that Lydia and I, I think, [did] anything together media wise. Yeah, hopefully this goes well so she doesn't disown me.

Lydia: I would never.

Mako: I know. I know.

Melissa: Yeah, I don't think we're probably in danger of that. I'm guessing.

Mako: Yeah.

Melissa: I don't know if you guys would like to just say a little bit about yourselves because it's one thing for me to give this formal introduction, but for you to say maybe identify a bit about how you guys would describe the work that you both do.

Mako: Sure. This is Mako Fujimura. I am an artist and I write books as well in between paintings. And I also happen to mentor a lot of younger people for the seminary through Brehm Center and Fujimura Institute. So I have been interested in this idea of cultural care and advocating for artists in culture and today since the discussion is on beauty, which is a discussion I've had with my daughter Lydia since she was in middle school, I thought it would be good to invite her. So here is my daughter, Lydia.

Lydia: Hi, I'm Lydia. I guess I could describe myself as a human resources professional. I've been working in human resources for about three years. I grew up in New York City and just loved people and diversity and culture and thought that that initiated with fashion and soon realized that it was more of a general love for psychology and behavior. So I went to study psychology and marketing in my undergrad and then moved out to California about four years ago to study organizational psychology and get my masters. And that's what led me here to human resources. So that's what I've been doing the last three years and I love it. I feel very challenged every day and just getting to kind of bridge the gap between professional psychology and then some work in nonprofits.

I worked with an organization called Telos, they operate out of Washington D.C. With my church we've gone on a few trips and a lot of their work is centered around peace building initiatives between polarized people groups, so better understanding how we can bridge the gap on a socio-economic, cultural, religious, and personal level. So those are some of the areas that I find myself in these days.

Melissa: That's awesome. Thank you. You both come from different backgrounds and disciplines. So I am really excited to hear both of your insights on all of these questions. So thanks again for weighing in on this conversation. Are you guys open if I just dive into some the questions that I like to ask people?

Mako: Sounds good.

Melissa: Okay, great. So the first one is kind of a big question. How do you define beauty?

Mako: Wow. So that's the big question. I've written two books. One is called Cultural Care and I try... in one chapter I tried to define beauty and I don't think I did a very good job, although I am able to put together all of the resources that I could find on that. And some people say it's helpful, but I was so unsatisfied I wrote another book called Silence and Beauty which was really in response to the book Silence by Shusaku Endo which was being turned into a film by Martin Scorsese.

So it was an opportunity for me to engage with the book Silence and the idea of Silence, but behind that is the sense of Japanese beauty, which to me is the most important definition, although it's more than a definition. It's what I call generative life and life that is always able to create something beautiful out of brokenness.

Melissa: You did that quite succinctly considering that you've written books on it. How about you, Lydia?

Lydia: People often ask me what it's like being the daughter of my dad. And I think I'm realizing a very direct response to that question right now, defining what I think beauty is just because I feel like I'm fortunate to have grown up in not only a familial environment where beauty is something that is talked about as a theory/concept, something tangible for me to even understand.

But even outside of just my family, it's always been something that I've been aware of and something that I wanted to pursue. And it's always revolved around people and understanding people on a human level, outside of socioeconomic status and culture, and like all of these various things that I value in people, the differences that we have, but also finding that common ground between differences within people.

And yeah, I think just to me, understanding beauty is understanding humanity.

Mako: Yeah and I remember having this kind of conversation with Lydia when she was in high school and she went to a Quaker High School in New York City, and what we kept on talking about was that society's definition of beauty is often cosmetic and superficial. And how we see beauty is very important on how we see ourselves. And having a daughter, growing up in New York City, involved in fashion at the time, I think we had these discussions about, well, what is true beauty and how do we access that? How do create it, and I'm an artist, so I'm in the business of creating beauty. But what does that mean? Especially in a culture that is not necessarily focused on beauty in a deeper sense, focused on beauty in a cosmetic sense, but not in a deeper sense.

Melissa: Yeah. That's a really articulate way you named the difference between the deeper beauty and cosmetic. Lydia, how did that land with you in high school? I'm just curious because that's a pretty big concept that your dad introduced to you at that time. I'm everyday trying to absorb that deeper definition of beauty. So as a high schooler, how did that land with you?

Lydia: Yeah, it's a really good question. It's funny because I haven't had to intentionally ever really think about this. I just kind of grew up in this environment of being able to ask those questions. But I think amidst that conversation that we had when I was in high school, I think for the most part it affected me in the way that I related to other people. I knew that my goal wasn't ever to be... I wasn't looking to fill this void of like being the prettiest in the class, or like getting the most boys to like me. That was just never a concept. Maybe I could... I don't know, build beautiful relationships that were meaningful to me. And not to say that one focus is better than another, but I think that focus had its downsides as well, just as far as being intertwined with making sure that I was in all the right people groups and stuff like that in high school.

I think for me it just kind of shifted the focus from like outward facing beauty and more learning about people and the values that they had. But I still had the typical 17-year-old’s mentality of feeling offended I wasn't invited to a party, and it's weird considering those social elements as a part of the concept of beauty, but I think it's relevant when understanding just relational dynamics and how we're meant to be as human beings as a whole.

Melissa: Yeah. Well, definitely. The next question, you both alluded to how you might answer this…I still think it's an interesting one to ask is just where do you see beauty in the world then, given the definitions that you mentioned?

Mako: Why don't you go first, Lydia?

Lydia: I always just think of my niece and nephew. It sounds so simple, but honestly, just like the innocence of children in general, I see beauty and that is in all of us I think.

I see beauty in the fundamental human nature that we all have and that is most easily understood in the form of children. And just how my niece and nephew see the world and how they see each other and how they see themselves. I'll often be talking to one of them about my trivial problems that I feel like is happening. So I'll be explaining a situation at work or explaining a relational situation and they'll just reply to me with a simple like, “you should have a cookie, you will feel better. You’ll feel better if you have a cookie.”

And it's just great perspective; to have the innocence of humanity and knowing what really matters at the end of the day and what is long lasting, what I'll be thinking about years from now. I don't know if that really answers the question, but, yeah.

Melissa: Yeah, it definitely does.

Mako: No, that's beautiful. So when I was writing Silence and Beauty book, which is about traumatized culture of Japan and persecuted culture of Japan, I thought a lot about this relationship between beauty and trauma, which is not something you think about often.

But when you are in a creative mode, when you're in the making mode, you have to kind of lock yourself in into the innocent side of that experience. You have to trust what is going to happen. The process of making, you trust that what God has instilled in me is true and authentic.

And so just like in Lydia's answer, seeing beauty in children's faces is very fundamentally the starting block for my creativity as well. It is being open and vulnerable to, first of all, my own innocence before let’s say the trauma took place or the Fall took place.

And the brokenness that I have to deal with is ultimately leading toward not just the recovery of that innocence, but a new discovery of new reality, a new identity, which is what God promises in the Bible is that we aren’t just restored to our old selves, we are made new in Christ.

And so that has been a very important concept for me, especially of late, as we journey into 20th anniversaries of many, many tragedies around this nation. And for Lydia and I, 9/11 specifically…Lydia and I [were] ground zero residents and Lydia grew up [as a] ground zero child. And as we move into the 20th anniversary of 9/11, I think this is a very significant portion of what I create out of. And what Lydia is able to move into the world, that is fractured and broken, and yet to focus on innocence, it's very important.

Melissa: Thank you. So, on that note of brokenness then, and maybe I don't know if you want to stick with the 9/11 event that you talked about, but the next question is about brokenness. Because I don't know if this is something you both have discovered, but sometimes it can be difficult to see beauty in the world because of all of the trauma and brokenness.

So could you both talk about maybe some brokenness that you are experiencing or have experienced in life and then where you perhaps see beauty breaking in the midst of that brokenness?

Mako: Do you want to go first?

Lydia: Sure. I'm 26 right now, so I'm in that weird stage of child to adult. And I think there's all sorts of times of reflection at this stage in life, of just looking back at my own life and seeing the areas in which I've grown. And I have a lot of personal areas of brokenness that I've overcome and areas that I'm still working through.

But I think the things that have most affected me are the experiences I've had that are shared with other people. And one of the main ones was going to Israel and Palestine. And I went on a peace building tour with a group called Telos that operates out of D.C. and they take groups there to learn more about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and figure out what our place is in all of it as human beings, Christians, Americans, all of that.

I think the biggest part of that experience was...it's a heavy trip, it's not a fun trip. Most of what we do is hours and hours a day of meeting with people and individuals who have been extremely broken by the government, or each other, or losing loved ones and just overall injustices. And it's just hearing stories of brokenness over and over again and learning about the repercussions of that culturally and economically. And initially, the first few days, it's a lot. It's very heavy and it's hard to find the hope in that. It's really difficult to have that perspective.

But the trip kind of takes a turn. The more that we dive into these relationships and really engage with people on the ground there, and it just kind of turns... we learn through their brokenness, the healing, the opportunities of healing that come about because of their willingness to share their brokenness with each other and with who they think their “enemies” would be.

There were quite a few stories that I could literally talk about for days, but stories of people just being completely stripped of their humanity. And amidst that they choose to see the humanness in others when others don't necessarily see the humanness in them. And because of that hope and that type of action, they're able to break through the brokenness and into hope, and create something new.

Coming back from a trip like that, listening to people who have lost children, but found forgiveness over their children's killers because they came together in their brokenness, coming back to America and living this first-world life of corporate America and California and all of the wealth here and the beautiful... we have running water all the time.

And I think learning to see, one, that there's elements of brokenness no matter where you are. But also learning just the importance of being with people amidst their brokenness, and how that can bring hope into the world through just kind of not letting it live in the dark, isolated.

I know that's all very general, but that's kind of just the beginning of it for me.

Mako: That's really beautiful to watch. For me as an artist, I am thinking about this idea of beauty in obviously my work, but also in my life.

And [the] Japanese concept of beauty often has relationship with the idea of sacrifice, which is unlike the Western definition. [The] Japanese think something that is worn out, like a wallet that has been used over and over, is beautiful because it represents a person's usage of this beloved object, right? And cherry blossoms falling is more beautiful than the splendor of it... the blossom because there's some understanding of the ephemerality of our lives and how transient our lives are.

And so, in the context of suffering and brokenness, beauty shines in Japanese culture. That's actually the entry point.

And so, I've endeavored to focus on... Okay, so [the] reality of brokenness can hit us in life, and that's part of what I try to process through my art is being honest and transparent about it through my art.

But at the same time, we can also recognize that that brokenness is an entry point and we have a choice to start from there or run away from there. But I've tried it in my life, facing the issues including my own journey of brokenness and seeing if God can not only mend and heal me, but bring something new out of it. And so that's what my art and my writing has been all about.

And to hear Lydia talk about her Israeli-Palestinian experience, is really deeply enriching to me because it's something that I’ve often experienced that I wanted my children to be able to move into the conflicts and be…and endeavor however that may be possible. But, we still have to choose to do that.

And, I think that to me is the ultimate legacy of what we experienced with 9/11 growing up in ground zero communities and what Lydia and her friends and her brothers have all endeavored to do.

Melissa: Thank you. That's very hopeful. I appreciate it. So then the next question is about lies around beauty. And so I'd be curious to know for you both what are lies that you've experienced about beauty in life?

Mako: So as an artist, that is the question I deal with every day. And because you can see yourself creating an alternative view of reality, escapism, or you can be authentically depicting brokenness and beauty through the brokenness, right? So, those are I think the lies that we tell ourselves in our culture is that we're not beautiful and we have to wear a mask to be beautiful and if that is exposed, we're in trouble.

True art to me does the opposite of that. It actually unmasks us, starting for myself, but unmasks us into vulnerability and through vulnerability, there's some kind of a new conversation that can happen that is rejuvenating and healing because we can actually talk about it.

So, the lies that are hovering are very cosmetic. It is set up to bring shame into identities and our hearts and, therefore, desire to be somebody else that we're not. And it's everywhere because that's how marketing works.

And I want... as I watched Lydia navigate through the fashion industry of New York, many of the conversations we had was about that, what is the difference and authentic beauty.

Lydia: I think what you're saying is definitely ringing a bell. I think one of the things that we talked about when I was studying fashion was, I kind of learned that the misconception of beauty is seeing beauty as finite or conditional, because so often it's like this scarcity mindset, like we've talked about before, just how... even outside of the two dimensional idea of beauty being looks or physical beauty.

I think it's easy to try and put something as layered and dynamic as beauty in a box. It's really easy for us to do that because it's so complicated and it's so complex and there's so much more to it than I think we'll ever understand. And no wonder people try to sell beauty because it's such an amazing thing. It makes sense. But as soon as we try to limit it and have it be this conditional thing that can only exist in specific situations and for specific people, I think that's when it changes its fundamental meaning, and its fundamental purpose.

Because ultimate beauty and learning about the beauty in people and the beauty in the life…and just life that we get to live is the fact that it is unconditional and not something that we can really measure. And the times that I have learned from beauty and been surprised by beauty are the times when I have not limited my perspectives. And they are times when I've challenged myself to see beyond what's right in front of me.

Melissa: Wow. Thank you. You guys have such rich answers. I feel like I'm just taking in a lot. I have two questions left. And also Lydia, I'm 35 and you said you're 26. You have such a wealth of wisdom around this. And I think having been in the New York fashion industry, I can only imagine it could be really unhelpful or it would cause you to really develop your ideas around true beauty. And it sounds like you have done the latter, which speaks to I think your strength and your wisdom even though I don't know you very well, so I think that that's really cool too to hear about your experience.

Mako: Yeah. Absolutely.

Lydia: Thanks.

Melissa: So the next question I have is just if there are any particular experiences that come to mind for either of you that have transformed your ideas around beauty?

Mako: Yeah. As I wrote the book Silence and Beauty, I'm obviously talking about beauty and it was a very hard experience writing it, because you have to revisit your trauma and you're going through trauma at the same time. And so I didn't want to write it. And when I finished the book and of course your life continues and so it's not… the book is finished but your life isn’t. And what that did was this discrepancy between what I had said, even at that point when I realized what was my conclusion on this topic, right? [It] was only an entry point, it was only a beginning that kind of kept on widening unexpectedly. And I really had to re-examine what I said as a consequence, which was really helpful.

And what was interesting about the book was that I had the English version that came out in 2016 and then I then worked on a Japanese version 2017. And during that process I had to re-calibrate not the definition of beauty or anything that I said, but I was adding my own inflections on to certain realities that I was experiencing. And then later on, as I began to showcase some of the art that I did during that time, it was just called Science and Beauty, that kind of evolved out of that time.

So, it's really something that is ongoing. And I find myself constantly thinking, first of all how deep this conversation is, and how grateful I am to have it. Because it is ultimately a generative conversation.

One thing that Lydia said, which is so true is that when you are in a limited resource environment, you cannot, you're not suppose to think about beauty, because beauty is extravagant and gratuitous. In a limited resource environment, that Lydia has visited where I have been to as well in the world, there's often beauty, much more than in the high fashion industry or the fancy New York art scene. What does that tell us about the choices we make?

These people who are considered poor and outcast marginalized people, seem to be able to exhibit and talk about beauty much more than we can. And so there's a lot to be learned from them.

And I have been really [in] listening mode because I realized after writing this book on Silence and Beauty, there's still a huge gap between what I say and what I write about and what I paint about and my own heart, which is a process that I continue to go through.

Melissa: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Thank you. So then for you, Lydia, did anything come to mind about any experiences that have transformed your ideas around beauty?

Lydia: Oh man. Did anything come to mind? So many. There's a lot that comes to mind, on different levels.

So there's the every day moments where the simple moments in life, like where you can, this is so cheesy, but where you can watch the sunrise and see... understand that because as a human, something like experiencing a sunrise or sunset is so beautiful. There's an element to that that is so simple and fundamental and easy. You can't capture that in any type of product or marketing. And it's something that translates across every language, culture, no matter where you are in life as a child or elderly person, like every single person would think a sunset or sunrise is beautiful. And to me that's just the basic nature of what beauty is and how I try to see beauty in my day-to-day life.

But then of course there's those big mountain top experiences that I've had with parents. There's this organization in Israeli and Palestine called the Parents’ Circle and they are basically Israeli parents and Palestinian parents who have both lost children amidst the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, sometimes because of the other side, and most of the time because the other side. And so there'll be a Palestinian parent that their child was killed by an Israeli soldier, whereas there's an Israeli parent where their child was killed by a Palestinian. And they come together and they form this bond and friendship together that is an illustration and example of forgiveness and reconciliation like I've never seen before.

And so there are those experiences, just learning from other people amidst their own brokenness. And finding humility in learning that we have to choose to release some things in life in order to get to hope and in order to get to beauty.

There [are] other areas that are less tangible than maybe hearing someone's story or seeing something beautiful happen in the world. And it's more so just like this constant journey of understanding what God's purpose is for us, and what it truly means to be like Jesus.

And I think we fail at that all the time, but I think the element of failing and realizing that, and moving forward is beautiful. And for me, that's what beauty is on a daily basis.

And I try to take those big experiences that I have had in my life and use that energy to propel me in moments of the mundane because we all have Mondays where we just want to sleep all day. And that can be beautiful too in its own way.

So I think that's just again my own, like trying to use that muscle of not confining beauty to one certain set of situations or time frame. It's more so learning about it in all of the unconditional elements of life.

Mako: Well, if I could add to that, where Lydia used to live is Newport Beach, so sunrise and sunset is quite... it's not cheesy at all, it's absolutely spectacular. And the title of my last show in New York at Waterfall Mansion Gallery was called Sea Beyond, S-E-A beyond, and it's based on an experience standing on Newport Beach, when I heard my mother's passing from my brother, she was in California. And then realizing that the horizon that I was looking at, when I Googled “what is sea beyond?” it turned out to be my hometown beach where my mother used to take me every summer day and in Kamakura, Japan.

And I realized that so much of what we intuit, and what we experience through beauty actually transcends grief and ourselves, so I felt like I was transported into this glance of new creation, where there was so much more that God has prepared for us. But because we're so caught up in trying to wear our masks and living each day in our stoic way to just survive, right? That we assume that resources are limited, that beauty is gratuitous, it's a waste of time for anybody to stop and enjoy a sunset. I think it's precisely the opposite. I think when we allow ourselves to be open to beauty, we experience something that we never thought was possible before.

And, consequently, we are able to experience people, relationships like these parents who had to endure this something that they will never get over, but, still, in their relationship is something that they can create out of. And, so it's a sea beyond journey for them as well.

And, I think that's for me... I always tell people that I mentor, "hey, do watch a sunset," and I had a Princeton student who decided that every day that she would commit to watching a sunset. And [this] Princeton student, being very busy, that was hard to do. And there were days that she couldn't do it, but she kept that up for four years and had friends join her. And I think that probably can do more for her in her life than perhaps…well a Princeton degree is a big deal, but anything she learned in the classroom, because that generates so much about her and that will help her to grow in the future.

Melissa: Thank you. The last question that I have, I feel like anything that both of you have said could be the answer to this question, but maybe something in particular comes to mind. The last question I have is, if there's one thing that you wish people knew about beauty, what would it be? I know it's probably a tough one.

Mako: Go ahead, Lydia. I think you have a good answer for this one.

Lydia: Oh, I don't even know. I think if there's one thing, I would say that, yeah, it's exactly that…I think everyone has a unique concept of beauty in them and I would encourage them to know, to eliminate the misconception that they don't know anything about beauty, eliminate the idea that they are not beautiful, eliminate the idea that... just take away any limitations that they have. And I would just want to learn about what each person's unique capability within beauty is. I think every single human has a unique perspective to share on the concept. And I am continuously learning about what that is when I meet new people.

And yeah, I think that just makes it kind of exciting because the more we learn about people, the more we can learn about beauty.

Melissa: Yeah.

Mako: Well, that's such a beautiful answer to me. I think, oftentimes we define beauty as this materiality of anything, object or even a person, right? A person is beautiful because has features or, and we've missed the whole thing when we say that.

And there's such an incredible beauty in a conversation that focuses on the internal reality, that seeing the world through the inner eye, whether it be people or landscape or sunset or any situation. And that's what I'm actually trying to do as an artist, even though my job is to observe and see. But really I want that to filter down to the internalized reality.

And if I could tell myself when I was 18 and maybe [a] college freshmen, trying to figure out the world, is exactly what Lydia just said is that, you may not think you're beautiful but you are, and spend the next four years discovering that, because it's true. And you can endeavor to do that or cover yourself up. You can spend the next four years running away from what you think is ugly, or something that is not worthy, or something that you are struggling with internally.

But the more you do that, the more you lose yourself and the more you can really just be open and vulnerable and find friends... find peers who can help you define that authentic self rather than run away and hide together.

And then for me, the gift of art has become a way to really delve deeply into that self, that part of me that perhaps at the time I was struggling with. Right? So that that has become my life, really. And I've learned to appreciate the things that I want to hide or what I'm not proud of, but those things are entry points, or have least become a way for me to get beauty and speak about beauty in brokenness to other people.

Melissa: Thank you guys. You both have added so much to this conversation I'm trying to have our own beauty. I really am so grateful.

Mako: Yes. Same here. Thank you so much. Okay, thanks. Thanks guys.

Melissa: Yeah, thank you so much.

Lydia: Bye.

Mako: Bye.

Melissa: Okay. Bye. Bye.

To learn more about Makoto Fujimura’s work, click here.

Are you tired of being sold a broken brand of beauty?

The brand of beauty we are so often sold as women is way too small. It divides and dis-integrates us. I am on a mission to expand and re-discover beauty, authentic beauty. I believe beauty is the life of God at work in us and among us. Will you join me in exploring that kind of beauty?

PodcastMelissa KucharskiOctober 23, 2019